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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 07:56:40 -0000
To: agathiyar@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Unravelling the Origins of Tamils: Blueprint?
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--- In agathiyar@y..., "Bala Pillai"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: jpisc98357@a...
> To: akandabaratam@y... ; IndianCivilization@y...
> Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2002 4:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [akandabaratam] Re: Sumerian Weapons
>
>
> In a message dated 6/15/02 4:03:31 AM Central Daylight Time,
bala@t... writes:
> You mention that the Akkads were Semitic and you are silent on
the "Semiticness" of the Sumerians? What is the distinguishing
criteria
> that historians use to label a group "Semitic" or not?
"Semetic" is only the name of a language group coined at the end of
18th century by the linguists, while in the late 19th C and 20 C ,
politically "anti-semeticism" has come to mean prejudice against
Jews. Note there are only anti-semeticism , there is no pro-
semeticsim. While Arabic is also a semetic language, note that arabs
are violently anti-semetic nowadays.
Historians by and large avoid the use of the term "semetic" since
their subject of study is people and not languages. Even in
languages , there are much better terminologies used than "semetic".
By the way, the etymology of "semetic" comes from Shem , one of the
sons of Noah in Old Testament. Hence , the use of term semetic or
rather anti-semetic is by and large confined to politics than
language or history.
However, you are intersted in unravelling the "origin of Tamils".
Note that Tamil came out of a putative language called proto-South
Dravidian some time around 500 BC. 2500 years Before Present (BP for
short), it is even more difficult to guess with any degree of
certainty who these people were who brought proto-South Dravidian to
south India. According to Zvelebil, a big "Kanya Kumari Express" i.e.
Proto-Dravdian speakers started in the north west India sometime
around 3000 Before Present. KKExpress started moving south. Lots of
people got out of the express along the way, giving rise to north
dravidian and south dravidian and each splitting further into
diferrent languages. It is also possible that some people who were
originally not part of this KKExpress got into the train. For
example, some vedic speaking brahmins would have got into KK express
very early. The final stop of this train was south of south India
disgorging passengers who spoke proto-south Dravidian. PSD gave rise
to Kannada, Tamil and Malayalam. What is the oigin of this KKexpress
i.e. speakers of proto-Dravdian and why did they move south rather
than north is anybody's guess. According to Witzel, proto-Dravidian
speakers came into India close on the heels of vedic speakers, but
not before them.
This is the "origin" of Tamil speakers circa 2300 BP. The "origin"
of Tamil speakers circa 0 BP is even more diverse. For example, a
good number of Tamil speakers today had Telugu ancestry just a few
generations back. Looking for origins beyond a point is mugs game. In
terms of genes , perhaps the only continuity between a Tamil speaker
of today and a Tamil speaker of 2000 BP lies in some social groups
such as Tamil Jains or Tamil brahmins or Maravars because only these
egroups can be be definitely known to have unbroken and by and large
unaltered genetic charateristics in the last 2000 years.
What does it all add upto? Very little, apart from interesting
speculations. Quest for "origins" is classic case of Foggy Bottom.
Vanbakkam Vijayaraghavan
>
> Dear Bala,
>
> One of the great unsolved mysteries of the Sumerians and their
language is "Where did it come from?" There are no proven sister
languages or daughter languages of Sumerian while there are literally
> hundreds of Semitic languages in both directions, Arabic and Hebrew
are just two of them still in use today.
>
> Sumerian is older than Akkadian, evidence goes at least as far
back as the 4th Millenium Ubaid and Uruk Cultures which were also
Sumerian.
>
> My speculation is that Akkadian was spoken by the desert
nomads and developed when there was more rainfall in the desert
areas, at least enough to support a herding economy (not crops).
These nomads entered the valley of the Euphrates some time during a
drought in their pasturelands and came under the rule of one of the
Sumerian cities where at least their upper classes became urbanized
and they either came to dominate a Sumerian city or founded their own
which probably much, much later came to become known as Akkad.
>
> My speculation is based upon my reading of the published
histories I have read, there is no emperical evidence to support it
that I know of.
>
> If you are going to identify a link between Sumeria, this is
the kind of speculation you have to attempt first, then you have a
rational scenario to seek evidence for. I doubt that you will find
it in language texts but your first questions should be, if you
believe them related should be:
>
> 1. Do Sumerian and Tamil or Dravidian show signs of having a
> common root, are they cousins in the time line?
>
> 2. Is Sumerian a mother language,.like Latin, to many other
languages,
> of which Tamil and/or Dravidian are the only survivors?
>
> A. Did refugees from Ur III's collapse escape to India to
found a
> new kingdom?
>
> B. Were there trading colonies on the coast of India
established by
> Sumerians to serve as client states?
>
> C. Did a native Indian kingdom with a port on the coast
invite a
> large expatriot community to its shores in an effort to
spark the
> growth of its economy by introducing much needed skills
in
> agriculture, irrigation, engineering, building, mining,
smelting,
> stone carving and lapidary art, metal casting, weaving,
pottery
> manufacture etc?
>
> D. Is there any evidence of a coastal city appearing
suddenly as a
> functioning Bronze Age urban area where it should not
be?
>
> 3. Can mtDNA studies isolate Sumerian from Semitic genetic lines
in
> the old heartland? If that could be done, then you would have
a valid
> theory for research into the genetic makeup of Tamil and
Dravidian
> speaking areas to see if you can find evidence of a familial
relation-
> ship.
>
> I am afraid that I can do little more than provide you with
possible scenarios that may or may not be true. If you wish to prove
your case you will have to seek evidence in the genetic,
archaeological and linguistic remains. You will have to be very
patient. The clues will alway be very ambiguous, subject to many
interpretations.
>
> Your quest will be subject to intellectual harrassment as well
by scholars who will deride the basic assumptions of your theory and
hinder your access to donations by benefactors, foundation and
government grands, unwillingness to allow you to excavate promising
sites, take blood samples for mtDNA testing, use of local facilities,
university support and on and on an on............
>
> If you are still willing to pursue the quest, you will need
to assemble a basic cadre of persons of similar mind and start
building an organization that will outlast you, you must consider
that your project may last a century or more and you will not be
around to see its completion.
>
> At some point Sadaam Hussein will be gone from Iraq and you
will be able to pursue genetic studies, you should be prepared to do
so as soon as that happens by immediately starting to map different
mtDNA strains in India to develop a genetic map. Some of this
information already exists in the literature, you will have to
assemble it, look for gaps and be prepared with fully operational
facilities when the opportunity arises.
>
> I have gone on and on but now at least you have the
perspective of an outsider who has no sword to draw or battles to
fight in your own quarrels with each other. I would appreciate any
input on my writings and hope it proves to be helpful.
>
> I was hoping that I would find this kind of discussion when I
first signed up for membership in the Indian Civilization discussion
group, instead I have seen too many nationalist hotheads explaining
to me why a nuclear war would be good for India.
>
> Best Regards, John
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancientweapons
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dong_Son
> http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
> PO Box 137
> Western Springs, IL 60558
> (708)246-7111
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